Curiouser and Curiouser said Khlari…….

Now some of this also rings a bell………..Thanks to

for this one……..

Don’t know who this could possibly remind me of…….also reminds me of something said to me by the wise old owl Mick of the London Vampyre Group who once said to me that many quite damaged people use gothicism and paganism as a facade to make themselves look interesting and justify their flawed personalities………..

Almost everyone has some narcissistic traits, but being conceited, argumentative, or selfish sometimes (or even all the time) doesn’t amount to a personality disorder. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a long-term pattern of abnormal thinking, feeling, and behavior in many different situations. The traits on this page will seem peculiar or disturbing when someone acts this way — i.e., you will know that something is not right, and contact with narcissists may make you feel bad about yourself. It’s not unusual for narcissists to be outstanding in their field of work. But these are the successful people who have a history of alienating colleagues, co-workers, employees, students, clients, and customers — people go away mad or sad after close contact with narcissists.

How many narcissists does it take to change a light bulb?

(a) Just one — but he has to wait for the whole world to revolve around him.
(b) None at all — he hires menials for work that’s beneath him.

This is a compilation of observations I’ve made from various people I’ve known well for many years. Most of these traits apply to all of the narcissists I’ve known, but that doesn’t mean that they’ll all apply to the narcissists you know. My narcissists are all high-functioning — that is, they’ve maintained gainful employment, marriages and family life — and there may certainly be narcissistic traits that I haven’t observed among the narcissists I’ve known. You can go directly to my full commentary on narcissists’ traits or you can select what you’re most interested in from the pink box below. Narcissicism is a personality disorder and that means that narcissists’ personalities aren’t organized in a way that makes sense to most people, so the notes below do not necessarily go in the order I’ve listed them or in any order at all. Interaction with narcissists is confusing, even bewildering — their reasons for what they do are not the same as normal reasons. In fact, treating them like normal people (e.g., appealing to their better nature, as in “Please have a heart,” or giving them the chance to apologize and make amends) will make matters worse with a narcissist.[For general discussion of cognition, affectivity, interpersonal functioning, and impulse control in personality disorders and NPD. It’s also interesting to compare these traits below with characteristics of normal six-year-olds.]

care only about appearances
critical of others
disappointing gift-givers
don’t recognize own feelings
envious and competitive
feel entitled
flirtatious or seductive
hard to have a good time with
hate to live alone
hyper-sensitive to criticism
lack sense of humor
strange work habits
unusual eating habits
weird sense of time

The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves. They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without even stopping to take a breath. It can be trivial (e.g., about what they want for lunch) or it can be serious (e.g., about whether or not they love you). When you ask them which one they mean, they’ll deny ever saying the first one, though it may literally have been only seconds since they said it — really, how could you think they’d ever have said that? You need to have your head examined! They will contradict FACTS. They will lie to you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to yourself. If you disagree with them, they’ll say you’re lying, making stuff up, or are crazy. [At this point, if you’re like me, you sort of panic and want to talk to anyone who will listen about what is going on: this is a healthy reaction; it’s a reality check (“who’s the crazy one here?”); that you’re confused by the narcissist’s contrariness, that you turn to another person to help you keep your bearings, that you know something is seriously wrong and worry that it might be you are all signs that you are not a narcissist]. NOTE: Normal people can behave irrationally under emotional stress — be confused, deny things they know, get sort of paranoid, want to be babied when they’re in pain. But normal people recover pretty much within an hour or two or a day or two, and, with normal people, your expressions of love and concern for their welfare will be taken to heart. They will be stabilized by your emotional and moral support. Not so with narcissists — the surest way I know of to get a crushing blow to your heart is to tell a narcissist you love her or him. They will respond with a nasty power move, such as telling you to do things entirely their way or else be banished from them for ever. ^

If you’re like me, you get into disputes with narcissists over their casual dishonesty and cruelty to other people. Trying to reform narcissists by reasoning with them or by appealing to their better nature is about as effective as spitting in the ocean. What you see is what you get: they have no better nature. The fundamental problem here is that narcissists lack empathy.
Lacking empathy is a profound disturbance to the narcissist’s thinking (cognition) and feeling (affectivity). Even when very intelligent, narcissists can’t reason well. One I’ve worked with closely does something I characterize as “analysis by eggbeater.” They don’t understand the meaning of what people say and they don’t grasp the meaning of the written word either — because so much of the meaning of anything we say depends on context and affect, narcissists (lacking empathy and thus lacking both context and affect) hear only the words. (Discussions with narcissists can be really weird and disconcerting; they seem to think that using some of the same words means that they are following a line of conversation or reasoning. Thus, they will go off on tangents and irrelevancies, apparently in the blithe delusion that they understand what others are talking about.) And, frankly, they don’t hear all the words, either. They can pay attention only to stuff that has them in it. This is not merely a bad habit — it’s a cognitive deficiency. Narcissists pay attention only to themselves and stuff that affects them personally. However, since they don’t know what other people are doing, narcissists can’t judge what will affect them personally and seem never to learn that when they cause trouble they will get trouble back. They won’t take other people’s feelings into consideration and so they overlook the fact that other people will react with feeling when abused or exploited and that most people get really pissed off by being lied to or lied about. ^

Narcissists lack a mature conscience and seem to be restrained only by fear of being punished or of damaging their reputations — though, again, this can be obscure to casual observation if you don’t know what they think their reputations are, and what they believe others think of them may be way out of touch with reality [see remarks on John Cheever elsewhere on this page]. Their moral intelligence is about at the level of a bright five- or six-year-old; the only rules they recognize are things that have been specifically required, permitted, prohibited, or disapproved of by authority figures they know personally. Anyhow, narcissists can’t be counted on not to do something just because it’s wrong, illegal, or will hurt someone, as long as they think that they can get away with it or that you can’t stop them or punish them (i.e., they don’t care what you think unless they’re afraid of you). ^

Narcissists are envious and competitive in ways that are hard to understand. For instance, one I knew once became incensed over an article published in a national magazine — not for its content exactly, but because she could have written something just as good. Maybe she could have — she hadn’t, but that little lapse on her part was beside the point to her. They are constantly comparing themselves (and whatever they feel belongs to them, such as their children and furniture) to other people. Narcissists feel that, unless they are better than anyone else, they are worse than everybody in the whole world. ^

Narcissists are generally contemptuous of others. This seems to spring, at base, from their general lack of empathy, and it comes out as (at best) a dismissive attitude towards other people’s feelings, wishes, needs, concerns, standards, property, work, etc. It is also connected to their overall negative outlook on life. ^

Narcissists are (a) extremely sensitive to personal criticism and (b) extremely critical of other people. They think that they must be seen as perfect or superior or infallible, next to god-like (if not actually divine, then sitting on the right hand of God) — or else they are worthless. There’s no middle ground of ordinary normal humanity for narcissists. They can’t tolerate the least disagreement. In fact, if you say, “Please don’t do that again — it hurts,” narcissists will turn around and do it again harder to prove that they were right the first time; their reasoning seems to be something like “I am a good person and can do no wrong; therefore, I didn’t hurt you and you are lying about it now…” — sorry, folks, I get lost after that. Anyhow, narcissists are habitually cruel in little ways, as well as big ones, because they’re paying attention to their fantasy and not to you, but the bruises on you are REAL, not in your imagination. Thus, no matter how gently you suggest that they might do better to change their ways or get some help, they will react in one of two equally horrible ways: they will attack or they will withdraw. Be wary of wandering into this dragon’s cave — narcissists will say ANYTHING, they will trash anyone in their own self-justification, and then they will expect the immediate restoration of the status quo. They will attack you (sometimes physically) and spew a load of bile, insult, abuse, contempt, threats, etc., and then — well, it’s kind of like they had indigestion and the vicious tirade worked like a burp: “There. Now I feel better. Where were we?” They feel better, so they expect you to feel better, too. They will say you are nothing, worthless, and turn around immediately and say that they love you. When you object to this kind of treatment, they will say, “You just have to accept me the way I am. (God made me this way, so God loves me even if you are too stupid to understand how special I am.)” Accepting them as they are (and staying away from them entirely) is excellent advice. The other “punishment” narcissists mete out is banishing you from their glorious presence — this can turn into a farce, since by this point you are probably praying to be rescued, “Dear God! How do I get out of this?” The narcissist expects that you will be devastated by the withdrawal of her/his divine attention, so that after a while — a few weeks or months (i.e., the next time the narcissist needs to use you for something) — the narcissist will expect you to have learned your lesson and be eager to return to the fold. If you have learned your lesson, you won’t answer that call. They can’t see that they have a problem; it’s always somebody else who has the problem and needs to change. Therapies work at all only when the individual wants to change and, though narcissists hate their real selves, they don’t want to change — they want the world to change. And they criticize, gripe, and complain about almost everything and almost everyone almost all the time. There are usually a favored few whom narcissists regard as absolutely above reproach, even for egregious misconduct or actual crime, and about whom they won’t brook the slightest criticism. These are people the narcissists are terrified of, though they’ll tell you that what they feel is love and respect; apparently they don’t know the difference between fear and love. Narcissists just get worse and worse as they grow older; their parents and other authority figures that they’ve feared die off, and there’s less and less outside influence to keep them in check. ^

Narcissists are hostile and ferocious in reaction, but they are generally passive and lacking in initiative. They don’t start stuff — they don’t reach out. Remember this when they turn and rend you! They will complain about the same things for years on end, but only rarely do anything to change what dissatisfies them so badly. ^

Narcissists are naive and vulnerable, pathetic really, no matter how arrogant and forceful their words or demeanor. They have pretty good reasons for their paranoia and cynicism, their sneakiness, evasiveness, prevarications. This is the one I get suckered on. They are so out of touch with other people and what goes on around them that they are very susceptible to exploitation. On the other hand, they’re so inattentive, and so disconnected from what other people are up to, that they don’t recognize when someone is taking advantage of them. ^

Narcissists are grandiose. They live in an artificial self invented from fantasies of absolute or perfect power, genius, beauty, etc. Normal people’s fantasies of themselves, their wishful thinking, take the form of stories — these stories often come from movies or TV, or from things they’ve read or that were read to them as children. They involve a plot, heroic activity or great accomplishments or adventure: normal people see themselves in action, however preposterous or even impossible that action may be — they see themselves doing things that earn them honor, glory, love, riches, fame, and they see these fantasy selves as personal potentials, however tenuous, something they’d do if they didn’t have to go to school or go to work, if they had the time and the money.
As Freud said of narcissists, these people act like they’re in love with themselves. And they are in love with an ideal image of themselves — or they want you to be in love with their pretend self, it’s hard to tell just what’s going on. Like anyone in love, their attention and energy are drawn to the beloved and away from everyday practicalities. Narcissists’ fantasies are static — they’ve fallen in love with an image in a mirror or, more accurately, in a pool of water, so that movement causes the image to dissolve into ripples; to see the adored reflection they must remain perfectly still. Narcissists’ fantasies are tableaux or scenes, stage sets; narcissists are hung up on a particular picture that they think reflects their true selves (as opposed to the real self — warts and all). Narcissists don’t see themselves doing anything except being adored, and they don’t see anyone else doing anything except adoring them. Moreover, they don’t see these images as potentials that they may some day be able to live out, if they get lucky or everything goes right: they see these pictures as the real way they want to be seen right now (which is not the same as saying they think these pictures are the way they really are right now, but that is another story to be discussed elsewhere). Sometimes narcissistic fantasies are spectacularly grandiose — imagining themselves as Jesus or a saint or hero or deity depicted in art — but just as often the fantasies of narcissists are mediocre and vulgar, concocted from illustrations in popular magazines, sensational novels, comic books even. These artificial self fantasies are also static in time, going back unchanged to early adolescence or even to childhood; the narcissists’ self-images don’t change with time, so that you will find, for instance, female narcissists clinging to retro styles, still living the picture of the perfect woman of 1945 or 1965 as depicted in The Ladies’ Home Journal or Seventeen or Vogue of that era, and male narcissists still hung up on images of comic-book or ripping adventure heroes from their youth. Though narcissists like pictures rather than stories, they like still pictures, not moving ones, so they don’t base their fantasies on movies or TV.
Grandiosity can take various forms — a narcissistic woman may believe herself to be the very model of perfect womanhood, the standard by which all others are measured, and she will try to force her daughters to be just like her, she will not be able to cope with daughters who are taller or shorter than she is, fatter or thinner, who have bigger or smaller feet, breasts, teeth, who have different favorite colors than hers, etc. Narcissistic men can be infatuated with their own looks, too, (witness John Cheever, for instance; Almost Perfect) but are more likely than women to get hung up on their intelligence or the importance of their work — doesn’t matter what the work is, if he’s doing it, by definition it’s more important than anything you could possibly do. Narcissists I’ve known also have odd religious ideas, in particular believing that they are God’s special favorites somehow; God loves them, so they are exempted from ordinary rules and obligations: God loves them and wants them to be the way they are, so they can do anything they feel like — though, note, the narcissist’s God has much harsher rules for everyone else, including you. [Many readers have questions about narcissism and religion. Here is an interesting article on the Web: “Narcissism Goes to Church: Encountering Evangelical Worship” by Monte Wilson. “Modern American Christianity is filled with the spirit of narcissism. We are in love with ourselves and evaluate churches, ministers and truth-claims based upon how they make us feel about ourselves. If the church makes me feel wanted, it is a good church. If the minister makes me feel good about myself, he is a terrific guy. If the proffered truth supports my self-esteem, it is, thereby, verified.”] [More on grandiosity.] ^

Narcissists have little sense of humor. They don’t get jokes, not even the funny papers or simple riddles, and they don’t make jokes, except for sarcastic cracks and the lamest puns. This is because, lacking empathy, they don’t get the context and affect of words or actions, and jokes, humor, comedy depend entirely on context and affect. They specialize in sarcasm about others and mistake it for wit, but, in my experience, narcissists are entirely incapable of irony — thus, I’ve been chagrinned more than once to discover that something I’d taken as an intentional pose or humorous put-on was, in fact, something the narcissist was totally serious about. Which is to say that they come mighty close to parody in their pretensions and pretending, so that they can be very funny without knowing it, but you’d better not let on that you think so. [Interestingly, this is the only trait on this list about which there seems to be any controversy. Maybe I’ve just been unlucky! I’ve known narcissists who’ll make fun of others, repeat jokes they’ve heard others laugh at, and laugh at jokes when others laugh, but knowing how to make people laugh is not necessarily the same as having a sense of humor.] ^

Narcissists have a weird sense of time. It’s more or less like they are not aware that the passage of time changes things, or maybe they just aren’t aware of time’s passing at all. Years can pass without touching narcissists. Narcissists often look, or think they look, significantly younger than they are; this youthful appearance is a point of pride to them, and some will emphasize it by either preserving the styles of their golden youth or following the styles of people the age they feel they “really” are. That their faces don’t show their chronological age is a good sign that they haven’t been living real lives with real life’s wear and tear on the looks of normal people. The narcissists’ years have passed without touching them. Bear in mind that narcissistic adults have had decades of not being in synch with the times or with other people, so that by now they are really out of it. Sometimes it just seems like they have a highly selective memory — which, of course, they do, sort of; they pay attention only to what has their name in it in the first place, so after 30 or 40 years, you shouldn’t be surprised to hear a narcissist say something like, “Didn’t the Beatles have a couple of hit songs while we were in high school?” or to suddenly discover that the narcissist doesn’t know that M&M’s have little m’s on them or that smallpox was eradicated over 20 years ago. They are not being ironic: they really don’t know. They were off in their own little world of fantastic perfection. On the other hand, as far as I’ve seen, all that stuff really is in there, but is accessible only intermittently or unpredictably. Narcissists ordinarily have spotty memories, with huge and odd gaps in their recollections; they may say that they don’t remember their childhoods, etc., and apparently most of the time they don’t. But they will have sudden accesses of memory, triggered by God knows what, when they remember details, everybody’s names, what people were wearing, why the people in that picture from 1950 are standing the way they are, what the weather was like, etc. — in other words, every once in a while, their memories will be normal. But don’t count on it. ^

Narcissists are totally and inflexibly authoritarian. In other words, they are suck-ups. They want to be authority figures and, short of that, they want to be associated with authority figures. In their hearts, they know they can’t think well, have no judgment about what matters, are not connected with the world they inhabit, so they cling fanatically to the opinions of people they regard as authority figures — such as their parents, teachers, doctors, ministers. Where relevant, this may include scientists or professors or artists, but narcissists stick to people they know personally, since they aren’t engaged enough with the world to get their authoritative opinions from TV, movies, books or dead geniuses/saints/heroes. If they get in trouble over some or another opinion they’ve put forth, they’ll blame the source — “It was okay with Dr. Somebody,” “My father taught me that,” etc. If you’re still thinking of the narcissist as odd-but-normal, this shirking of responsibility will seem dishonest and craven — well, it is but it’s really an admission of weakness: they really mean it: they said what they said because someone they admire or fear said it and they’re trying to borrow that person’s strength. ^

Narcissists have strange work habits. Normal people work for a goal or a product, even if the goal is only a paycheck. Normal people measure things by how much they have to spend (in time, work, energy) to get the desired results. Normal people desire idleness from time to time, usually wanting as much free time as they can get to pursue their own thoughts and pleasures and interests. Narcissists work for a goal, too, but it’s a different goal: they want power, authority, adulation. Lacking empathy, and lacking also context and affect, narcissists don’t understand how people achieve glory and high standing; they think it’s all arbitrary, it’s all appearances, it’s all who you know. So they try to attach themselves to people who already have what they want, meanwhile making a great show of working hard. Narcissists can put in a shocking amount of time to very little effect. This is partly because they have so little empathy that they don’t know why some work is valued more highly than other work, why some people’s opinions carry more weight than others’. They do know that you’re supposed to work and not be lazy, so they keep themselves occupied. But they are not invested in the work they do — whatever they may produce is just something they have to do to get the admiration and power they crave. Since this is so, they really don’t pay attention to what they’re doing, preferring the easiest thing at every turn, even though they may be constantly occupied, so that narcissists manage to be workaholics and extremely lazy at the same time. Narcissists measure the worth of their work only by how much time they spend on it, not by what they produce. They want to get an A for Effort. Narcissists lack empathy, so they don’t know what others value or why. Narcissists tend to value things in quantitative ways and in odd quantities at that — they’ll tell you how many inches of letters they received, but not how many letters or from how many correspondents; they know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
A narcissist may, in fact, hold himself to a grinding work schedule that gives him something like an addictive high so that, when wrought up, he can be sort of dazed, giddy, and groggy, making you wonder if he’s drunk or otherwise intoxicated — now, that’s a real workaholic. Usually, this excessive busyness appears to be — and some will even tell you this — an attempt to distract themselves from unpleasant or inconvenient feelings (i.e., it’s a manic defense against depression — and, note, with narcissists it’s inaccurate to use “happy” or “unhappy” because their feelings are just not that differentiated; “euphoria” or “dysphoria” are as close as they get to ordinary pleasure or distress) or to make themselves unavailable to others’ emotional needs. ^

Narcissists feel entitled to whatever they can take. They expect privileges and indulgences, and they also feel entitled to exploit other people without any trace of reciprocation. ^

Some narcissists spend extravagantly in order to impress people, keep up grandiose pretentions, or buy favorable treatment, and some narcissists overspend, bankrupt themselves, and lose everything. My personal experience is that narcissists are stingy, mean, frugal, niggardly to the point of eccentricity. This is a person who won’t spend $1.50 on a greeting card but will instead send you an advertising flyer that came with the newspaper. This is a person who will be very conscious of her appearance but will dress herself and her children in used clothes and other people’s cast-offs. [Note: Thrift is not in itself a narcissistic trait; neither is a fondness for old clothes. The important element here is that the narcissist buys clothes that other people she admires and wishes to emulate have already picked out, since she has no individual tastes or preferences.] These are people who need labels or trademarks (or other signs of authority) to distinguish between the real thing and a cheap knock-off or imitation, and so will substitute something easy and cheap for something precious and dear and expect nobody else to know the difference, since they can’t. These are people who can tell you how many miles but not how many smiles.
Narcissists are not only selfish and ungiving — they seem to have to make a point of not giving what they know someone else wants. Thus, for instance, in a “romantic” relationship, they will want you to do what they want because they want it and not because you want it — and, in fact, if you actually want to do what they want, then that’s too much like sharing and you wreck their fun and they don’t want it anymore. They want to get what they want from you without giving you what you want from them. Period. If you should happen to want to give what they want to get, then they’ll lose interest in you. ^

Something I had not connected with narcissism until I read about Reactive Attachment Disorder is that narcissists I’ve known have had unusual eating habits or appetites, including eating match heads, dry cake mix, chicken bones, raw meat, dog kibble, egg mash, bits of paper, wood pencils; some binge or gorge on ordinary foods, others seem always to be on one or another self-imposed, self-invented eccentric dietary regime. This behavior does not seem to have much in the way of affective component compared to, say, “normal” eating disorders. ^

Narcissists are very disappointing as gift-givers. This is not a trivial consideration in personal relationships. I’ve seen narcissistic people sweetly solicit someone’s preferences (“Go ahead — tell me what you really want”), make a show of paying attention to the answer (“Don’t you think I’m nice?”), and then deliver something other than what was asked for — and feel abused and unappreciated when someone else gets gratitude for fulfilling the very request that the narcissist evoked in the first place. I’ve seen this happen often, where narcissists will go out of their way to stir up other people’s expectations and then go out of their way to disappoint those expectations. It seems like a lot of pointless work to me.
First, narcissists lack empathy, so they don’t know what you want or like and, evidently, they don’t care either; second, they think their opinions are better and more important than anyone else’s, so they’ll give you what they think you ought to want, regardless of what you may have said when asked what you wanted for your birthday; third, they’re stingy and will give as gifts stuff that’s just lying around their house, such as possessions that they no longer have any use for, or — in really choice instances — return to you something that was yours in the first place. In fact, as a practical matter, the surest way NOT to get what you want from a narcissist is to ask for it; your chances are better if you just keep quiet, because every now and then the narcissist will hit on the right thing by random accident. ^

It’s very hard to have a simple, uncomplicated good time with a narcissist. Except for odd spells of heady euphoria unrelated to anything you can see, their affective range is mediocre-fake-normal to hell-on-Earth. They will sometimes lie low and be quiet, actually passive and dependent — this is as good as it gets with narcissists. They are incapable of loving conduct towards anyone or anything, so they do not have the capacity for simple pleasure, beyond the satisfaction of bodily needs. There is only one way to please a narcissist (and it won’t please you): that is to indulge their every whim, cater to their tiniest impulses, bend to their views on every little thing. There’s only one way to get decent treatment from narcissists: keep your distance. They can be pretty nice, even charming, flirtatious, and seductive, to strangers, and will flatter you shamelessly if they want something from you. When you attempt to get close to them in a normal way, they feel you are putting emotional pressure on them and they withdraw because you’re too demanding. They can be positively fawning and solicitous as long as they’re afraid of you, which is not most people’s idea of a real fun relationship.
I always have the problem that I get fed up and stay away from THEM long enough to forget exactly what the trouble was, then they come around again, and every narcissist I’ve known actually was quite lovable about half the time so I try it again. A clue: Run for cover when they start acting normal, maybe expressing a becoming self-doubt or even acknowledging some little fault of their own, such as saying they now realize that they haven’t treated you right or that they took advantage of you before. They’re just softening you up for something really nasty. These people are geniuses of “Come closer so I can slap you.” Except that’s not the way they think about it, if they think about it — no, they’re thinking, “Well, maybe you do really care about me, and, if you really care about me, then maybe you’ll help me with this,” only by “help” they mean do the whole thing, take total responsibility for it, including protecting and defending them and cleaning up the mess they’ve already made of it (which they will neglect to fill you in on because they haven’t really been paying attention, have they, so how would they know??). They will not have considered for one second how much of your time it will take, how much trouble it may get you into in their behalf, that they will owe you BIG for this — no, you’re just going to do it all out of the goodness of your heart, which they are delighted to exploit yet again, and your virtue will be its own reward: it’s supposed to just tickle you pink to be offered this generous opportunity of showing how much you love them and/or how lucky you are to be the servant of such a luminous personage. No lie — they think other people do stuff for the same reason they do: to show off, to perform for an audience. That’s one of the reasons they make outrageous demands, put you on the spot and create scenes in public: they’re being generous — they’re trying to share the spotlight with you by giving you the chance to show off how absolutely stunningly devoted-to-them you are. It means that they love you; that’s why they’re hurt and bewildered when you angrily reject this invitation. ^

Appearances are all there is with narcissists — and their self-hatred knows no bounds. The most dramatic example I can think of is from John Cheever’s journals. Throughout his life he had pursued surreptitious homosexual activities, being transiently infatuated with young men who reminded him of himself in his youth, while also living in a superficially settled way as a married family man, a respected writer with an enviable suburban life, breeding pedigreed dogs and serving on the vestry of the Episcopal church. When his secret life (going to New York City for a few days every now and then to pick up sailors and other beautiful boys for brief flings) came to scandalous light, his family sought to reassure him by telling him that they’d known about his homosexual activities for years. Now, a normal person would be ashamed and embarrassed but also relieved and grateful that scandal, not to mention chronic emotional and marital infidelity, had not caused his wife and children to reject and abandon him — but not the narcissist! Oh, no, Cheever was enraged that they would ever have thought such a thing of him — if they really loved him, they’d have bought his artificial “country squire” persona: they would have seen him as he wished to be seen: they would have believed his lies without question or doubt. ^

Narcissists don’t volunteer the usual personal information about themselves, so they may seem secretive or perhaps unusually reserved or very jealous of their privacy. All these things are true, but with the special narcissistic twist that, first, their real life isn’t interesting to them so it doesn’t occur to them that it would be interesting to anyone else and, second, since they have not yet been transfigured into the Star of the Universe, they’re ashamed of their real life. They feel that their jobs, their friends and families, their homes and possessions aren’t good enough for them, they deserve better. ^

Narcissists not only don’t recognize the feelings and autonomy of others, they don’t recognize their own feelings as their own. Their feelings are sort of like the weather, atmospheric, acts of God. The narcissistic think that everyone’s having the same feeling as they are. This means that usually their own pain means nothing to them beyond the physical discomfort — it has no affective component. When they do get some painful affect, they think that God is punishing them — they think that their trivial errors are worth God’s specific attention to their punishment. If you try to straighten them out, by telling them that your feelings are different, beware: their idea of sharing their feelings is to do or say something that makes you feel the way they’re feeling and, as they make a point of not sharing anything desirable, you can expect something really nasty. The sad fact seems to be that narcissists feel just as bad about themselves as they make others feel about them. ^

Narcissists are noted for their negative, pessimistic, cynical, or gloomy outlook on life. Sarcasm seems to be a narcissistic specialty, not to mention spite. Lacking love and pleasure, they don’t have a good reason for anything they do and they think everyone else is just like them, except they’re honest and the rest of us are hypocrites. Nothing real is ever perfect enough to satisfy them, so are they are constantly complaining and criticizing — to the point of verbal abuse and insult. ^

Narcissists are impulsive. They undo themselves by behavior that seems oddly stupid for people as intelligent as they are. Somehow, they don’t consider the probable consequences of their actions. It’s not clear to me whether they just expect to get away with doing anything they feel like at the moment or whether this impulsiveness is essentially a cognitive shortcoming deriving from the static psychic state with its distorted perception of time. ^

Narcissists hate to live alone. Their inner resources are skimpy, static, and sterile, nothing interesting or attractive going on in their hearts and minds, so they don’t want to be stuck with themselves. All they have inside is the image of perfection that, being mere mortals like the rest of us, they will inevitably fall short of attaining. ^


16 Responses to “Curiouser and Curiouser said Khlari…….”

  1. Good outline of what makes a narcissist. To be fair, damaged people find shelter not only in pagan and gothic subcultures but almost any community – you can hardly reference those examples and not evangelical Christianity, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Scientology and even, for that matter, the Women’s Institute. The point is, damaged people can undermine any community given enough time and attention. It’s up to communities to weed out such types if they are to avoid eroding whatever messages they wish to send out, whatever social group they are seeking to build. x

  2. The blogosphere is a place where we find many narcissists, given it provides the opportunity for everyone to have a public platform for our beliefs and personas, both real and contrived. Only yesterday I was pointed in the direction of a blog which was remarkably self-congratulatory and evidently written by an inflated and dysfunctional ego, the writing of poor quality and intended to shore up a fragile and insecure persona. It made for depressing reading – at first I thought, if people like that are blogging, we must be at the tail end of the phenomenon – but then I realised that there are millions of bloggers exactly like that, because the world has millions of people like that, and the blogosphere can only mirror the diversity of people, good and bad and healthy and dysfunctional.

    Narcissism is also intrinsically linked to jealousy. Other people are poets, I can write poetry too; other people have talent, I have talent, too. These are but two examples of how people without much of anything to offer anyone feel a need to claim special abilities and gifts for themselves. Unfortunately, true talent does not crow; it simply is and, sooner or later, receives acknowledgement from others. It does not shout from the rooftops or offer vulgar statements of ‘how good am I’ or ‘how lucky am I’. Those who do that are guilty of self-deception, and ultimately their entrance into the world of blogging can only attract the similarly sad in terms of readership, and compound their flaws rather than address them.

    How it must burn to be a narcissist at times, especially when confronted with genuinely attractive people of talent whose abilities and popularity stand in stark contrast to their own empty and false lives. They construct personalities for themselves which have no bearing on reality, and in so doing produce dishonest blogs. I, for one, am proud to keep an honest blog in which I can, because I have sufficient intelligence and confidence, reveal my weaknesses and failings as candidly as my strengths. And have the discernment to know what is real and what is not. As do you, and all the bloggers whose sites I regularly frequent. x

  3. I just find it hard that these people destroy others in their wake by their self-centred attitude, whether it be in relationships, groups or even in the blogosphere….

    I have never claimed to be perfect, nor a saint (contrary to comments on certain blogs), but I do think that I have consideration for other people and their thoughts and feelings, and I would never attempt to impose my thoughts, feelings, value systems on anyone else…..everyone had the right to their own views. As to whether I may be a damaged person- we all are to a certain extent but that does not mean that we have to inflict damage on others.

    I say honestly what I do feel, in life as in my blog, which although it may not be to some peoples tastes, is at least honest, as many failings as virtues, as many failures as successes. What is true, what is real, what is important to me, and who is important to me. Real life.

  4. sarah flanigan Says:

    Isn’t the modern-day narcissist, the sociopath of bygone days? Another name may be anti-social – which is not to say they don’t socialize but that they are pro-them and anti-anybody else. It always staggers me that so many focus on people who seek to harm whether aggressively or passively others. It may be the fascination of the traffic accident, one simply can’t look away. Still, you have to wonder what would happen if that energy were focused on positive people and activities. I know this is a simplistic point of view but to me, people like that should simply be ignored (unless they have committed crimes and require blunting of same).

    As to the comment above that references specific religions as being more predisposed to this type of behavior, I’d like to see the study and science that supports such a claim. None of the groups mentioned are known for violence, committing crimes or non-humane behavior – so I have to question how the conclusion was arrived at. Ironically, the commenter did not mention a religion that is known worldwide for its violence, hatred and intolerance. Interesting.

    Thanks for the provocative read.

  5. Hi sarah

    That’s the ironic thing, those of us attracted to paganism and gothicism are attracted to these groups because we don’t have a natural tendancy to this type of behaviour, and it is sad that these kind of people latch on to the non-aggressive tendancies of these kind of groups thinking that they will get their own way more easily within them….. The truth is, all kinds of social and religious groupings attract narcissists I’m afraid. Maybe they think that as goths and pagans are seen as ‘strange’, they may initially be accepted into the group more readily, as they are less judgemental than the ‘norm’.

    Some of this has come from the real-life experiences of myself and SpicyCauldron, as we know each other in both real life and cyberspace….. and when it happened to us, we began to look into it and realised that there were other goths and pagans who had similiar experiences to ourselves on this, judging by the amount of webspace dedicated to it, which surprised us too…..

    and believe me, we’re ignoring them now, though as you say, those who have committed crimes can’t go unpunished……

  6. sarah flanigan Says:

    Hi Khlari,
    I think I see the point you are making – but I guess I see it in the opposite. That the anti-social/narcissist sees religions and other social groups as places they can infiltrate and take advantage of people’s kinder natures. Sometimes, they even manage to become involved in an authoritative position and wreak havoc on grander scales. I guess my point is that religion by and large (even new age religions) have at their base to do good unto others. You can agree or disagree with whatever their particular philosophy is – but I do think overall that is the motivation. You will always find nuts in any group, religious, neihborhoods, workplaces, wherever – none are kook-free. Know what I mean?

    I guess I bristle at generalties – because we are all individuals – if I’m a Jew that doesn’t mean I am good at business, or if I’m a vegatarian doesn’t mean I support PETA and so on.

    But I think your overall point is that people who become invovled in non-mainstream, or sub-culture type activities (goths?) can fall prety to being taken advantage of because they don’t have a focus to center them in their lives? I can see how this could be true. Having no experience with Goths I have no personal knowledge though.

    Thanks for the nice exchange. I like exploring new topics.

  7. Sarah,

    I’m not sure that the anti-social / narcissist realises what is it they are actually doing – What I mean by that is – In their head they are the reasonable ones, the ones trying to do people a favour – they feel that they are there to solve everyones problems, take on the woes of the world/religion/sub-genre – whatever and be the answer –

    Why ? Well of course they get a huge kick out of it, they enjoy the attention – they are often very charming when you first get to know them – so when they drop into a pessimistic phase – maybe because they could be clinically depressed – those around them try to help, walk on eggshells, encourage them to seek help – but they are now in a complete spiral downwards – they don’t want help – they want attention – they behave erratically and can become violent

    So, yes I agree that they take advantage of peoples generosity and good nature but whilst there will always be those who chose to behave like that – I’m sure the majority don’t actually realise they are doing it until its too late – they’ve driven away the ones who loved and wanted to be with them and friends who cared about them – They often don’t learn from this experience and move on to continue the cycle with another group/person etc.

    There is of course an element of narcissism in us all – Sub-genres such as paganism and goth are filled with those that just enjoy being different – We like to stand out from the crowd – and we have to recognise that in ourselves otherwise it can develop into something much more sinister and corrupt

  8. Sarah wrote:

    As to the comment above that references specific religions as being more predisposed to this type of behavior, I’d like to see the study and science that supports such a claim.

    I didn’t say that. I basically said that communities of all kinds, and gave some examples ONLY, attract those who undermine said communities through what you probably rightly more accurately termed ‘sociopathic’ behaviours. ALL spiritual paths attract people who work with and work against whatever others involved in those paths are trying to achieve.

    Here’s what I said, repeated again:

    To be fair, damaged people find shelter not only in pagan and gothic subcultures but almost any community – you can hardly reference those examples and not evangelical Christianity, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Scientology and even, for that matter, the Women’s Institute. The point is, damaged people can undermine any community given enough time and attention.

    So please, before you challenge what someone has said, it seems only sensible to actually read AND comprehend what they said. x

  9. I’ve posted some further reading folks…….

  10. sarah flanigan Says:

    I’m afraid I have the opposite view to yours. I believe that they are aware of what they are doing – that it is intentional. I agree they like the attention and feel they are somehow on a mission of their own, but I don’t believe it is unknowing. And yes, I suppose all of us do have our bouts of anti-social behavior but the difference is that we are aware of it and feel bad about it. We have a conscience and, I believe, they do not.

    I did read what you wrote and my response reflected my take on what you said. Your clarification does expand on what you said and I suppose I understand better what you meant now. I have to say, though the ‘AND comprehend what they said’ comment bothered me. There was no intention on my part to not comprehend – your assumption that there was, in my opinion was unfair.

  11. Sarah, you may have read but you didn’t comprehend, as my response – in which I quoted back to you what I wrote alongside your own comment clearly showed. You can’t take what someone says and say they said something entirely different, that’s very unfair at best. If anybody is assuming, it is you for reading something that patently was not there. It does nothing to further a debate or discussion by making up in your own head something that wasn’t in front of you and then proceeding to attack someone else’s ‘assertion’ which wasn’t made in the first place!

    I didn’t clarify. I repeated. Clarification would suggest I was not clear in the first place. I was abundantly clear which is why all I did was repeat what I’d written in my first comment, set next to a quote from your own which showed while you may have read, you certainly did not comprehend what I was actually saying. I stand by my last response; there was no assumption therein whatsoever, only defence against your own, unfair and completely wrong, assumption. End of story. x

  12. sarah flanigan Says:

    Have it your way. What you wrote made no sense to me. I was trying to be polite but apparently that didn’t help the matter any. You obviously feel it is my responsibility to understand what you mean. Perhaps if I knew you, I might be able to decphyer it, but I don’t so I can’t.

    Rather than attacking and ridiculing me you might have just asked me why I had that reaction to what you wrote. And we might have had a nice exchange of new ideas. Instead we have antagonism.

    That’s fine, I don’t belong here anyway, that’s clear.

    See ya.

  13. It’s your responsibility to understand what’s written, yes, if you’re going to respond to it in the way you did. If you don’t understand for whatever reason, don’t respond – or simply ask for clarification instead of barking out a need for proof of something that wasn’t said.

    And as for deciphering – well, it wasn’t written in Chinese. And my follow-up comment set your words next to mine. The disparity was blindingly obvious.

    Anyone is going to be annoyed if their words are taken out of context with other things bolted onto them that were neither said nor implied. You were groslly unfair and now trumpet about my being unfair to you. Unbelievable. The tragedy is rather than simply apologise for your misunderstanding, you refuse to even acknowledge you did something wrong in the first place and you still talk of ‘that reaction to what [I] wrote’ when I – DID – NOT – WRITE – WHAT – YOU – SAID – I – DID. Dumb, dumb and dumber. So yeah, either address the salient point – which is that sentence in bold – or, sadly, shut up.

    There can be no exchange of ideas if someone behaves as you have here. For that to happen, you need to read what people say and comment on their views directly, not make their views up as you go along. What you had was an experience all in your own head. Why not blog and create a number of psuedonyms by which you can leave comments for yourself – and then argue to your heart’s content?

    Your final fit of pique – the diva-esque throwing back of the virtual shoulders before turning away – reveals all I need to know. I’ve been trying to use simple logic and reason with a fool who won’t listen, can read but has serious issues with actual comprehension. I suggest you go back to the beginning, start with picture books and large letters, and work your way up. All being well, with dedication you might be reading Tolstoy in as little as six months. Ya never know.

    Anyhow, flounce all you like. There’s only so long I’ll flog a dead horse before consigning it to complete inconsequentiality. See ya indeed.

  14. sarah flanigan Says:

    Nice tirade. Does it work on others? I’m not intimidated – just bored. Have fun with your mental machinations and your self-righteous indignation. I hope you’re very happy together.

    Me, I’m just a dumb bunny who can be understood when she writes something. Go figure. Duh.

  15. I don’t seek ever to intimidate, simply to enjoy conversations with intelligent people who read AND comprehend. Some, however, have bricks for brains and so every effort to communicate with them is like scraping your tongue over barbed wire and washing your brain in bleach. I thought you’d stropped off rather than ever recognise you hadn’t properly read my original comment before firing off about it? I guess you’re one of those who want the last word as well as one of those who never apologises.

    You’re clearly a fool and people who know me know that it is exceptionally rare I ever address anyone as such. You’re not a ‘dumb bunny’ because bunnies have the virtue of being cute and warm. Only a fool would try to suggest a professional writer who’s earned plenty big-time crusts from his work can’t write to be understood. I think you’ll find copyrighters, editors, content managers ONLY get their jobs from BEING understood and it’s thankfully rare I come across malignant idiots like you who elect to parade their stupidity as a badge of accomplishment and honour.

    I guess it all depends who you’re writing for and who’s pretending to be able to read.

  16. I see you’re hawking a novel. And that you, too, have written since you were very small, which I find remarkable when I consider your absence of comprehension hereon to date. It’s a shame. Clearly, while at odds with each other, we share a similar passion for the written word. I must say, hand on heart, I thoroughly enjoyed your short story ‘Up in Smoke’.

    As I say, I don’t seek to intimidate. If I did, I wouldn’t give you credit where credit is due, nor take the time to check out your work. It’s simply that I get thoroughly pissed off when people don’t apologise for getting things wrong and go on to justify themselves. You’ve compounded your error when a simple ‘sorry’ would have gone a long way. And thus elicited anger, rightly so in my view.

    Let’s see. I could happily and quite readily apologise for the excesses of indignation if you were able to say sorry, too. We could then put aside our argument and move on. But it would require some equivalent accommodation on your part and willingness to meet, as it were, on neutral virtual ground.

    You have me completely wrong – you need only ask Khlari on that score, for while I have a sharp defensive tongue I am not unreasonable – and it is therefore not an unreasonable assumption, either, to say I might have you completely wrong, too. Please, show me so. I certainly think neither of us are presented at our best in this mutually vitriolic exchange and it is best we change direction. I don’t think I can be fairer or clearer than this. Of course, in extending this I run the risk of you proving unwilling or unable to provide the same; it is still worthwhile, as one way or another we shall see movement.

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